Talk:Elven language
'Shue shah tauthau toetoi thuet': I don't want to kill you. This sounds odd. Where does it come from? -- Marvin Arnold 12:15, April 28, 2010 (UTC) It was never supposed to be part of the actual list. It is a made-up string of nonsense from a thread on Bioware, reminiscent of the Chinese phrases spoken by the people in the show Firefly. It has been removed because of inaccuracy. Bellaknoti (talk) 03:08, September 18, 2010 (UTC) Since the release of Suledin and its translation, I have been able to parse a correct substitute: Ar'din nuvenin na'din. I have made a note of it at the bottom of the page, amongst the "threats". Bellaknoti (talk) 17:01, April 6, 2011 (UTC) Ghostly Mother and Child Does anyone have a translation of what the shade of the boy's mother (in the Lower Ruins) says? Rosenoire 07:21, April 30, 2010 (UTC) :If someone will post a transcript, I will give a shot at translating it, since I did most of the deconstruction on the main page. Bellaknoti (talk) 03:08, September 18, 2010 (UTC) Gleaned from the youtube video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nAU75Uhb-A The mother says: "Viran se lan'aan? Ir annala for ros... Ir emah'la shal! Ir emah'la shal!" Bellaknoti (talk) 23:34, September 18, 2010 (UTC) :At least on the console version, the mother has an additional line. After "Viran se lan'aan? Ir annala for ros..." and before the player has the chance to reply, she also says "Nae! Ga rahn s'dael! Ga rahn!" Eltha7 (talk) 03:00, December 27, 2010 (UTC) ::'Nae' is probably 'No', and 's'dael' is 'our little one'; I bet she's saying, "No! Get away from our little one! Get away!", but that's just a guess. Bellaknoti (talk) 16:44, January 25, 2011 (UTC) should we also put what the boy says? I didn't see it in the article, and he says "Mamae? Mamae na mara san..." and then mamae three more times, though the latter isn't needed. (talk) 06:06, September 19, 2010 (UTC) :I lacked that transcript. Correction noted, and thank you! Bellaknoti (talk) 16:23, September 19, 2010 (UTC) When the child first spots you he runs away and shouts: "Ma halani! Se vara lassa'val! Nae mal!". In case anyone wishes to try and translate it as well. - Kerethos (talk) 20:26, October 16, 2010 (UTC) :Wow, I wish I could, but it just doesn't have enough precedent. If we're lucky, they'll release something else with more Elvish in it, and give us a clue. Bellaknoti (talk) 19:21, October 19, 2010 (UTC) If it helps, I have a theory on the context. My guess is, the Tevinters at some point decided to purge the temple, and the mother, who was a caretaker, ran into the uthenera chamber and sealed it. The poor child got lost and didn't see his mum seal herself inside the chamber, so he backtracked, at which point he encountered Tevinters and ran back towards the room with the altar. The Tevinters killed him and then tried to open up the chamber, but instead released shades, and the shades killed everyone in the temple (hence why the "life gem" found elsewhere in the temple shows visions of something killing "human and elf alike".) Of course, it's just a theory, based primarily on the fact that most of the ghosts seen in DA are folks who died in particularly violent circumstances, and on the assumption that the Tevinters are a bunch of sparkle-fingered idiots who can't keep their hands to themselves (I mean seriously, you'd think after accidentally creating the darkspawn that they would have learned to leave sacred-looking things alone...) -- Gnostic (talk) 17:27, November 10, 2010 (UTC) These spirits are human. As per what killed them by account of what the elven mage in the life gem said is unclear. But it did kill both human and elf alike. --Tsavi (talk) 20:54, November 12, 2010 (UTC) :I'm going to agree with Bellaknoti here, I'm 100% certain the woman was an elf and 95% certain the boy was. The models for human and elven children are very similar, so unless we can get a screenshot showing that the boy doesn't have elven ears or someone can go into the toolset and screengrab his info to show that he is infact not an elf, it should probably be left as it was for the time being. EDIT: Also considering how much work Bellaknoti has put into the Elven Language article, understanding and deconstructing the language, even identifying the correct pronunciation, I'm pretty sure she knows that part of the game backwards and forwards. It's partly why I think it should be left how she had it until there is something concrete showing them not to be human (rather than putting a note on the article about the race of those two being in question for the time being). 21:50, November 12, 2010 (UTC) ::Plus, why would a human boy be speaking Elvish? -- Gnostic (talk) 22:28, November 12, 2010 (UTC) :::I'm going to bet the answer to that is "they were living with elves". I actually just looked at that video up there that shows the ghostly mother to see if I could find indicators of race. The womans hair was down so I couldn't see her ears, the ghost effect was making it hard to read her jaw line... but I can't help but feel it's wrong that I can tell her race by her bust size... elves are noticeably smaller in that area. 22:41, November 12, 2010 (UTC) ::::Okay, but even if a screenie shows the boy to have round ears, it's already been established that all half-elves are human. So, he is speaking Elvish and has an elven mother, even if he looks human. Furthermore, there *is* precedent for *some* of what he says, because we know for a fact that "mamae" is the Elvish word for "mother", and "na" means "your", not to mention "ir" for "very" and "annala", a permutation of "annar", meaning "year"... Even if I can barely suss any of the rest of it, there is enough canon Elvish here to make it firmly *not* Tevinter, and it's obviously not Ferelden common. The entire argument is spurious and moot. They are speaking Elvish; whether or not they are, in fact, elves, is irrelevant. :::::They are clearly not speaking Tevinter, that would be a silly thing to suggest with earnestness. It is possible though that if Tevinter or Alamarri humans were living with elves in those ruins that they might be speaking some sort sort of creole. Even though BioWare invented Tevinter and Elven languages (among others) for Dragon Age, I seriously doubt they would make use of actual creoles, it just seems like far to much trouble (I'd be surprised to see minor regional variants, beyond pronunciation that is). 23:48, November 12, 2010 (UTC) :::::: I'd like to point out, just as a big, shiny clue: you have to solve The Elven Ritual, which is actually located in The Elven Tombs to get the Juggernaut helm from the quest The Mage's Treasure, not to mention the fact that following the boy in the first place leads you to a sarcophagus where you receive the instructions for the Elven Ritual, which is Codex Entry: A Carved Elven Tablet. So... gee. Seems pretty clear-cut.Bellaknoti (talk) 23:54, November 12, 2010 (UTC) ::::::: The mother is human by her ears. Also, how do we know for sure that the humans in the time frame of this ruin didn't also speak Elven if it were in fact elven. And the fact that the juggernaut armor is found there suggests that some Tevinter's knew about elven rituals. Whether or not the boy ran to the room with the tablet could have just been that the magister who put the armor piece in there left that so they could go back in time without having to worry about carrying something fragile about. --Tsavi (talk) 01:48, November 13, 2010 (UTC) I'm not going to indent here because it's getting kind of ridiculous. @Tsavi, you can't even see the mother's ears, they are covered by her hair, you have to look for different markers. We also don't even know if the Tevinter were ever in those ruins to start with. The Juggernaut Armor is of Tevinter make yes, but it was placed there by a Revenant sent to hide it from the Clayne (another name for the Fereldan people). We have no date for when the structure was made, when it fell to ruin, or even when the armor was placed there. Magister Harach had no need to know where the ruin was, or how to get in, or how to access the inner-most chambers, that was all up to the Revenant that entered the place. Revenants themselves are made from Pride and Desire Demons which are quite intelligent on their own and watch people from across the Veil, it wouldn't be that weird for one to know about the ruins. 02:16, November 13, 2010 (UTC) Lethallin/Lethallan The article states that the word "lethallan" is used for males, while "lethallin" is used for females. However, during the Dalish Origin story, Tamlen refers to the PC as "lethallin'"'' if male, and as "'''lethallan" if the PC is a female character. Tested the origin as both sexes on the PS3, May 06,2010 (6:24am) Glacé 07:16, May 21, 2010 (UTC). The confusion comes from the opening. For some reason, during the intro sequence with the three humans, Tamlen refers to the female PC as lethallin, and the male pc as lethallan. However, all further dialogue switches them, so that male is lethallin and female is lethallan. It's most likely a glitch or mistake in the dialog script. Fiddlesoup 16:17, May 18, 2010 (UTC) Thanks for that info, Fiddlesoup. It seems that only the PC version has this inconsistency when Tamlen first refers to you, it appears to have been corrected for the PS3 and 360 as far as the Dalish origin opening goes. Glacé 09:21, June 7, 2010 (UTC) Suledin (Endure), from the Leliana's song DLC translation Well, I was sifting through my computer and I came across a text file containing the translation of Suledin from the Leliana's Song DLC that I made a while back (to be clear, I made the text file not the translation). I don't quite recall where I got this but it's not mentioned in the Elven Language article and I haven't had much luck in tracking it down. I decided not to simply add it to the article since I can't figure out where I got it, maybe someone else will remember where it's from. Well, here it is: Suledin (Endure) An elven song about enduring and emerging from sorrow, tied to the loss of their ancient lands, but adapted to personal struggles as well. The first half is the “down side” the lament portion. The second is the “up side”, the finding strength portion. ---- Hopefully someone can place where this is from and it can add to the know vocabulary for the language. --Aedan Cousland (talk) 02:06, October 21, 2010 (UTC) :I did some more digging around and I found it myself, here's what I assume to be it's first posting by Lukas Kristjanson (one of the writers) over in the BioWare forums. I'm going to go ahead and place it in the main article. --Aedan Cousland (talk) 03:47, October 21, 2010 (UTC) Wow, totally awesome; thank you so much! I am currently in the process of trying to figure out the actual vocabulary; like the other poem, "in unthenera", the translation is rough. I think once I've gotten the literal translation nailed down, we might have more insight to the ghosts' conversation as well. Bellaknoti (talk) 01:03, October 22, 2010 (UTC) Breakdown complete! It's like playing telephone; Mr. Kristjanson states that there are rules, and vocabulary built up in-house, and so I am trying to translate Elvish that has been translated into English back into Elvish. Some things may have gotten lost. For instance, translating the first line back into Elvish, "Melava inan enansal", which is defined as "Time was once a blessing" actually reads, literally, "We once dwelt in the blessing of time". I sent him a private message via the BioWare Forums, but I have not yet received any response; anything that may come of it, I will post. Bellaknoti (talk) 16:16, October 25, 2010 (UTC) Ma Vhenan? When romancing Merrill in DA2, she uses "ma vhenan" quite a lot, often in a way one would expect to mean "my love". However, according to the page, "ma" means "you" and "emma" means "my". For example, she says, "And you... with an elf? Ma vhenan, you are crazy." Assuming the page is right, she's saying "heart, you are crazy." which I might translate as "You lover, you are crazy." or, she says, "Ir abelas, ma vhenan." which would dictionary translate as "sorrow, heart." or "I'm very sorry, you lover"? It just seems odd. I haven't played the Dalish origin in a while, so I'm curious as to the evidence for "ma" and "emma". Can someone help me out? —ErzengelLichtes ( ) 06:42, April 5, 2011 (UTC) Looking at some of the other phrases on the page, ma seranas and ma nuvenin would indicate ma as being "you". ma seranas means "Thank You", or dictionary translation of "You Gratitude". This could just as easily be "My Gratitude." ma nuvenin means "As you wish", or dictionary translation of "You want". This cannot be converted to my. However, all of these phrases (ma seranas, ma nuvenin, and ma vhenan) would make sense if ma means "You have my". Then the dictionary translations would be: *''ma seranas'': You have my gratitude. *''ma nuvenin'': You have my want. *''ma vhenan'': You have my heart. Is there any other in evidence that would need to be considered?—ErzengelLichtes ( ) 18:16, April 5, 2011 (UTC) The basis for the definition of "emma" comes from the Elvish eulogy poem. The line "emma ir abelas" is translated as "now I am filled with sorrow". We know that "abelas" means "sorrow", and in Suledin, the line "ir su araval tu elvaral" is translated as "but long journeys are made longer", which, as it seems Elvish is a partially symbolic language (see notes at the bottom of Suledin), it would seem to confirm that "ir" means "very". This leaves "emma" as the possessive "I am" or "my". As for "ma", my surmise was the same as yours, that because of "ma nuvenin" vs. "ma serranas", "ma" must mean "you". However, we know that Elvish doesn't always translate directly - in fact, few actual languages do - and some idioms of a language do not necessarily make any sense at all, in another language. For instance, an endearment in French ("mon petit chou") translates to "my little cabbage" in English, while another in Spanish ("gordo") translates to "fatso", neither of which are flattering in English, but which are accepted happily in their native lands. In Spanish, we see "que onda", which translates literally as "what wave", but is used the same as "what's up" in English. There are languages in Europe which use no prepositions or articles - I beta stories for people from these areas from time to time - and it's interesting to see how they drop little words like "and", "to", and "so". I would say that "ma" as "you" is fine as it stands, but I will make a note that it can be used as a possessive; sometimes those things are simply implied. For instance, in Spanish, you can say "soy frio" for "I am cold", however, it is missing the "yo" at the beginning to make it actually have the "I" in it, because "soy" has an implied possessive. Another example is "tengo queso", "I have cheese". It's the same, whether you put the "yo" in it or not, because "tengo" contains an implied possessive based on its conjugation. I hope this has been helpful! Thank you for posting about Merrill's speech habits; I look forward to anything else in Elvish we can get out of DA2! Cheers! Bellaknoti (talk) 16:58, April 6, 2011 (UTC) Dragon Age II OST lyrics I've been looking for it all over the internet, nothing so far. Anybody knows where to find (though I suspect they're not available anywhere yet), maybe someone who knows the elven language enough could make a transcription? Mage Pride, Destiny of Love and Rogue Heart are amazing songs, I wish I could sing along. Escoralique (talk) 08:01, May 14, 2011 (UTC) :Truefax: I'm the girl who speaks Elvish in her sleep. *headdesk* I took a crack at it a couple of weeks ago, but can't make heads nor tails of it without a direct transcript; I'd just be parsing phonetically, and then there's no guarantee that I could translate, since there's no 'meaning' to check it against. :( I, too, hope that there is a lyrics and meanings release, soon. Bellaknoti (talk) 23:24, May 19, 2011 (UTC) ::Thank you Bellaknoti, I understand it's almost impossible a task, let's just keep waiting for Bioware to "fanserve" us. :) Escoralique (talk) 07:07, June 7, 2011 (UTC) Found this on a youtube video of Rogue Heart, No idea if its correct. if not just ignore me. But if it is it might help in some way. Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jc_xqnTKWw Ahana'heth a lethalin', needa 'ven. sullana lanádna. Véda' malláná, Donasite'.﻿ Véda' malláná, Donasite' :Thank you, anon poster. :) Unfortunately, since spelling is absolutely critical to translation, those words we don't already know can't be pulled from it. For instance, is she saying "ven", to go, or "vhen", people? Is 'donasite' how it's spelled, really? What if it's "do'na sit'te" or "dona'site" or "do nasi'te"...? There are so many possibilities that I couldn't even begin to translate it. However, Mr. Gaider has offered me transcripts of the original poetry he wrote for the lyrics. He says that the musicians seem to have rearranged it to suit themselves, so we may not be able to rely on the word order as they have it, anyway. For now, it is simply a matter of patience while we await his word. Bellaknoti (talk) 15:42, November 12, 2011 (UTC) :Is it possible it could come out as: Aneth ara lethallin / Ir aravel / Sulahn melana / Vir ar melana / Dareth shiral :I'm actually fairly confident about everything but the "vir ar melana". The way it's sung, however, doesn't quite sound right for "melana" - she gives it a long A rather than the AHN that comes from canon, but otherwise, this seems to fit. If the musicians have indeed rearranged it (possibly dropping some words?), this phrasing could be extrapolated, sort of, roughly, as: We sing of the time / of your very long journey / from my safe place, lethallin. / Safe journeys. :I feel that some of the rearranging may have been from "Vir sulahn melana" where "vir" is used as "We" instead of "path", so the phrasing of "vir ar melana" could have been musician-made. But I'm not strongly confident of melana being in there anyway. -- (talk) 05:55, August 27, 2012 (UTC) I've listened to Rouge Heart several times now, and I like it. It's very beautiful, but there is a snag ; Written down the elvish words looks very nice, and it sounds nice in my head, but out loud with an english accent, like in the vid, it sounds a bit clumsy and gobbled, as if she is singing with her mouth full of porridge. I'm not trying to hack on english, it is beautiful in its own right, but in elvish it sounds wrong. I know the dalish in DA2 speaks with irish or welsh accents, but is that something that came to them because of their isolation from other people, or is it a remnant of the ancient elvish? I don't know if elvish would sound different if it was spoken/singed with irish accent rather than english, but I don't think it would be such a big difference. Could there have been a different "arlathan accent" the language was supposed to be spoken in, and it has just been lost to time (the words today could have been written words found on paper or tablets, instead of passed down from tongue to tongue)? If so, what would it be? Could it be a "real-world" accent like orlesian/french and antivan/spanish? What accent do you think elvish would sound best in? Russian? Greek? --SylvanLore (talk) 12:24, March 26, 2012 (UTC) Someone states the language is "Arcanum" (from Tevinter) - but I do not know if this is true. It sounds Elvish to me: Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPrHBpUdhgA Parochy (talk) 11:37, April 21, 2012 (UTC) Ooooooohh. That shot straight up to my top ten favorite songs. Thank you so much for posting this! Have Bioware written an arcanum dictionary, or do they just make things up as they go in the game? Arcanum is a smaller language (less used in the games) than elvish, right? I hope this is elvish, and that we get the lyrics. Soon. Arcane warrior techniques Dirth -> tell/speak in the dictionary, "dirth" appears only as tell or speak, but if we look at the construction of "dirth'ena enasalin" we'd have tell/speak ' appear/emerge triumph dwells so perhaps "dirth" is the not only 'tell' but also 'the word' so when 'the word' is shown/appears - dirth'ena... it's knowledge. knowledge which dwells in triumph (or as Solas translated it: knowledge that led to victory) (talk) 10:20, December 11, 2014 (UTC)Neleo Errors in the 'Phrases' section, and new words? Arcane Warrior is listed as dirth'ena enansal; the actual phrase is dirth'ena enasalin. Likewise, the derogatory term is listed as ghilan'nain banal'vhen when it's actually ghilan'him banal'vhen. I would fix them, but I don't know how to fix the pronunciation guides. Also, by cross-referencing between the codex entry on Skyhold (specifically the word nadasalin) and dirth'ena enasalin, salin would seem to mean victory or triumph. And by looking at the dialogue during All New, Faded For Her, halani seems to mean help; the phrase 'ma halani' shows up both in Origins (spoken by the ghostly mother) and when you encounter the first artifact in Inquisition (either Solas or a Dalish inquisitor can say 'ma halani' to Mihris) and would likely translate as 'help me'. (talk) 20:06, December 22, 2014 (UTC) RavenSurana *Thank you! I was wondering whether or not to add "halani" as "help," because I wasn't too sure and couldn't remember if it was mentioned anywhere else besides All New, Faded For Her. Also, "tel" seems to suggest a negative/opposite connotation. The Spirit of Wisdom tells Solas, "Tel'abelas" ("I'm not sorry"), the inscription at Solasan temple says, "Tel garas solasan," which translates to "Come not to a prideful place," and the On Skyhold translates "telrevas" and "telsethenera" into "inevitable/threatened victory" and "untorn veils." --KeladinStorm (talk) 22:22, December 22, 2014 (UTC) *Tel was the other one I was trying to remember! Thank you! (talk) 05:11, December 23, 2014 (UTC) RavenSurana More thoughts: Shartan's sword is named Glandivalis, and when Solas is talking to Mihris he says "Ma halani, ma glandival." In the Skyhold entry, the first word is var'landivalis, translated as 'our belief'. It's possible the apostrophe indicates the g has been removed from glandival to make it sound better, which would seem to indicate glandivalis means belief, and glandival could be believe, making Solas' statement into something along the lines of "I believe you can help me." The inscription on the Solasan temple has the phrase 'melana en athim las enaste' translated as 'now let humility grant favor'. Mythal'enaste is a phrase used by (among others) Nissa when she is worried about her brother; it could therefore be 'Mythal's favor' or something of the sort, and 'las' would then be give or grant. In the final scene of the Solas romance, he can tell you 'ar lasa mala revas', followed by 'you are free'. Ar is I, revas is freedom, mala is used by Solas' friend (mala suledin nadas, you must endure) and possibly by Solas in Mythal's temple (malas amelin ne halam, I hope you find a new name) as a formal? polite? 'you'. Ar lasa mala revas could then translate as 'I grant you freedom'. (The te'las in tarasyl'an te'las could then possibly be 'not given', or held back.) (talk) 22:26, December 24, 2014 (UTC) RavenSurana *Yes, "glandivalis" as "belief" would make sense. Lasa/las as "grant/give" also makes sense, even though my brain wants to reject it since "las" is a direct object pronoun in Spanish. The other thing about the Solasan temple phrase is that the translation doesn't include any words associated with "time," which "melana" translates into. Assuming that the latter half of the sentence, "las enaste" is "grant favor," that leaves the former half ("melana en athim") in an awkward position. Good point. It could have something to do with the 'now' part, I suppose, but that's a very loose interpretation for 'time'. Translating Nightmare's comment to Solas in the Fade In the Fade at Admant, when the Fear demon is talking to your companions, it says this to Solas if he's in your party, "Dirth ma, harellan. Ma banal enasalin. Mar Solas ena mar din." To which Solas replies, "Banal nadas." So far, this is my take at translating this... "Tell me, trickser/traitor. My/me/you banal enasalin. Mar Solas appear mar not/dead." I'll leave Solas's reply alone. •Banal could mean nothing, as Banalhan is 'the place of nothing'. So Banalhan could be banal (nothing) + an (place). •Mar could be ma (you or me) + ar (I) = we(?). •Enasalin could be enasal (a variation of joyful release) + in (inside) = joy inside? Or maybe it's enasal + lin (blood) = joy-blood? This is the one that trips me up... So with that done, this is what it looks like: "Tell me, traitor. You nothing enasalin. We Solas appear we not?" So the translation does not make very much sense to me. Anybody have any ideas? -User:Feykrofahliil Well, we know that Solas means pride/to stand tall. Also, using "Mar" coupled with certain words translates as "I am ... you" or "I ... you." For example: Mar Lath = I love you. Thus "Mar Solas" could be "I am proud of you" So it could be something along these lines: *"Dirth ma, Harellan. Ma banal enasalin. Mar Solas ena mar din." *"Tell me, traitor to your kin. You have no joy inside of you. I am proud of what you have become." "ena" can also mean emerge, which could also be become. I have found two other translations, neither definite: *"Tell me, noble rebel. You have no comfort in your loss. Your pride will be their death" *"Tell me, traitor, are you pleased with the oncoming isolation? Their stand here now means their destruction." I think the proper translation will reveal that the fear demon was trying to play on Solas' fears of loneliness and was probably talking about how he (demon) would kill those he traveled with. As well as dropping the bomb about his past. 02:33, January 8, 2015 (UTC) Trying a different approach here: given what the Nightmare does, if we consider "enasalin" as "relief", since "enasal" is the joy of overcoming loss wile the suffix -in may suggest something that dwells in, and banal as a noun, not as an abjective; if "Dirth" is here used as "knowledge" instead of "speak", keeping the "mar solas" = "I'm proud" applying the same logic to the following "mar", another (loose) translation may be: *Know me, rebel/trickster/traitor. The relief of nothingness. I'll be proud to be your undoing." to which Solas replies "banal nadas" that I've always seen translated as "nothing is inevitable" but I believe it may be a more prosaic "nothing (you) must (be)" so, loosely: * "Shut up" or "Go away". Eloquent. :) abadir (talk) 13:33, January 28, 2015 (UTC) I've got a different take. We know that the Nightmare's goal is to get into each person's head and confront them with their worst fears (ie Bull being ridden by a demon). The Graveyard tells us another fear of Solas' is that he will die alone. Who/what Solas is gives us another insight as to what the Nightmare is probably going to poke at. Most of the words have been individually translated on the main page: *Dirth (tell, speak) ma (my, mine, you), harellan (trickster, traitor to one's kin). Ma (my, mine, you) banal (nothing) enasalin (victory). Mar (my, mine, you I...you) Solas (Solas or Pride but used as a name because of capitalization) ena (appear; emerge) mar (my, mine, you, I...you) din ("not", or "isn't"; also used to indicate someone who has died: someone who is not). After adding that up, and a little interpretation, I think you get: * Dirth ma, harellan: Tell me, traitor / Speak to me, trickster (Take your choice) * Ma banal enasalin: Your victory means nothing / Your victories will mean nothing. (As Nightmare seems to be speaking in present/future tense to everyone else, but I'm unsure if it is one victory or many) * Mar Solas ena mar din: You appear as Solas but that isn't you. / Your "Solas" will emerge as someone who doesn't exist. Cryllia 06:20, February 11, 2015 (UTC) Extending from the elvish curse dithara-ma, I took the words dirth ma, harellan to mean "You will learn, deceiver." I read ma banal ensalin as "you will not be victorious", and mar solos ena mar din as "your pride will be your death", akin to saying that his pride will be his downfall. GhostWolfe (talk) 15:21, April 11, 2015 (UTC) Tarasyl'an - Deconstruction So, I've been reading this page a fair bit the past week, and have started an attempt at deconstructing some of the new words, so that we can get new words/phrases/dialogue and what not. Anyway, Tarasyl'an is translated to "The Place where the sky is kept". If we deconstruct that, it comes out to be "An" - Place, and "Tarasyl" which I assume to mean "Keeps the sky". And given that Sylaise is the "Hearthkeeper" is it a safe assumption to make that "Tara" means "The Sky" and "Syl" means "Keep/Kept". I was thinking of adding it to the page, but I haven't a clue if it would be worthwhile or not. 21:05, January 20, 2015 (UTC) Hmm, I actually think 'Tarasyl' means 'sky' - considering the elvhen language combines different words to give poetic meaning, 'tarasyl' probably has a literal translation of 'great air' or something. So, 'Tarasyl'an' would translate to 'Sky place, and 'te'las' to 'held back' (or 'not given,' assuming 'las' is 'to grant/give,' and 'tel' negating the verb). --[[User:KeladinStorm|'Keladin Storm']] 22:33, January 20, 2015 (UTC) :Except Morrigan says that Skyhold was once named "Tarasyl'an" which, as I said, translates, in her words, to "The place where the sky is kept". "Tarasyl'an Te'las" translates to "The place where the sky was held back", which also happens to be where my confusion on the matter comes from. 22:52, January 20, 2015 (UTC) ::Oh, right, I forgot Morrigan had her own translation on that. Though I'm kind of more inclined to trust the dread wolf's translation ("the place where the sky was held back") over her's seeing as how she's not an ancient elf... --[[User:KeladinStorm|'Keladin Storm']] 23:34, January 20, 2015 (UTC) :::There is the possibility that both translations are indeed correct. Given that Morrigan's neglects the last part. Held and Kept are synonyms as well. Also remember that Sylaise is known as the Hearthkeeper, so if that is also the translation of Sylaise, then "syl" would mean "keep". 23:49, January 20, 2015 (UTC) ::::Mm, fair point. --[[User:KeladinStorm|'Keladin Storm']] 22:41, January 21, 2015 (UTC) :There is another traqnslation (with several new words) in the "On Skyhold" codex entry. *Var'landivalis him sa'bellanaris san elgar / Melanada him sa'miras fena'taldin (word missing) / Nadasalin telrevas ne suli telsethenera / Tarasyl'an te'las vehn'ir abelath'vir (word missing) :translated in-game *Our belief transformed into everything. (assertation/problem? uncertain) / All time is transformed into the final/first death (uncertain), / inevitable/threatened victory and horrible/promised freedom in the untorn veils, (uncertain) / Where the sky is held up/back, where the people give/gain love that is an apology/promise from/to....(missing subject, uncertain) :Here "Tarasyl'an te'las is "Where the sky is held up/back". as -an is a place (so it could also mean "where" and I suppoert thye theory of "tel-las"="hold","keep" as contrary of "las"="give","grant", "Tarasyl" probably contains not only the word for sky but a word that can either mean "up" or "back", or maybe TWO words that can be obtained deconstructing it differently (i.e. if you split it "Tara-syl" you have "sky-back", if you split "Tara-rasyl" you have "sky-up"... there are several combinations that could be, we should find terms in other phrases to understand it) abadir (talk) 17:13, February 4, 2015 (UTC) ::With "Te'las" meaning "held/Kept" it conflicts Morrigans translation, as pointed out above. She says Skyhold's true name is "Tarasyl'an - The place where the sky is kept", and Solas' says the true name is "Tarasyl'an Te'las - The place where the sky was held back". ::If we consider both to be correct, "Te'las = back". It makes more sense when it comes to translating to consider different sources, unless the translations are wildly different. In this case, the evidence is there in both translations. And admit it, "Tarasyl" literally translating as "Skyhold" is pretty neat. 22:11, February 4, 2015 (UTC) Mana. Ma halani. "Mana. Ma halani. There are few in this world that I can trust without my own people turning against me." A Dalish inquisitor will say this to Mihris in the quest 'Measuring the Veil', after Mihris claims the Amulet of Power. Mihris will then give the amulet to the Inqusitor (to give to Solas). I don't know how to deconstruct it, but I hope that putting the transcript here is helpful to the experts. Seshet (talk) 21:49, January 20, 2015 (UTC) "Ma halani" would be "help me." Not too sure what the "mana" would correspond to in that context. It could be "wait," since mana apparently means, "distant past; long amount of time." But that's a bit of a stretch. --[[User:KeladinStorm|'Keladin Storm']] 22:41, January 21, 2015 (UTC) :"Mana" may have a double meaning. It is not uncommon (think of "can" as noun and as verb): as a noun/adverb may be past/long ago, as a verb may be "to wait". It may also be that "mana" is a form of a different verb (like "man") in imperative form (I recall there are elvish verbs that seem to have an "-a" suffix when used as imperative, though I can't think of an example right now).abadir (talk) 13:25, January 30, 2015 (UTC) So "Wait. Help me. There are few in this world that I can trust without my own people turning against me." Does anyone have any objection to this being posted as the correct (or best-guess) translation? Seshet (talk) 10:53, February 7, 2015 (UTC) : I'm still not 100% sure about "mana," but a lot of the existing phrases in the deconstruction section are also loose speculations, so I guess it wouldn't hurt to post it. --[[User:KeladinStorm|'Keladin Storm']] 02:12, February 8, 2015 (UTC) Ar dirthan'as ir elgara, ma'sula e'var vhenan. From the Solas/Sera dialogue that starts with this phrase. Deconstruction attempt: I knowledge-place/secrets-place('as) very/more spirit(a), me/my'(sula) (e')our heart. Um. Yeah, that makes little sense. Dirthan as 'knowledge-place' is from the '-an' suffix usually meaning place; and 'dirth' of course being knowledge or secrets. Elgar is usually spirit, but elgara may well mean something different. Seshet (talk) 19:37, January 21, 2015 (UTC) I've tried as well, and based on "Ar lasa mala revas - You are free", I came up with: "You are well travelled in places heavily spiritual, my song fills our hearts" Makes a bit more sense, but still a bit senseless. 21:14, January 21, 2015 (UTC) Maybe he's quoting a section from an old song, or a proverb or something? He's not actually addressing her so much as attempting to find out if she responds to the rhythm of the language; so using something rhythmic would make sense. Seshet (talk) 05:46, January 22, 2015 (UTC) Going with the idea that it's a quote or a line from a song, how about something like this (for an idiomatic, not a literal translation): "You walk in the Beyond, my singing fills our hearts." I left out the 'very/more' in the first phrase to give it a better scansion in the English variant. (you WALK in THE beYOND, my SINGing FILLS our HEARTS.) Seshet (talk) 04:28, January 24, 2015 (UTC) Pronunciation Playing through all the games, certain elvish phrases or names crop up often enough that it becomes fairly noticeable they are rarely pronounced the same way twice. It might be as simple a matter as nobody giving the voice actors precise enough instructions, or it may be deliberate to (quite accurately) give the impression that nobody in Thedas actually knows how to correctly pronounce the words, given that it's essentially a dead language. I've noticed it most in the common phrases and especially the names of the gods - what mostly changes is which syllable is stressed (Fen'HARel vs Fen'HarEL) or the length of vowels (Falon'DEEN vs Falon'DIN). Also, on several occasions, Solas' pronunciation is specifically different from how everyone else does it - One would assume that in this case there must definitely be more behind it than just a lack of precise instructions at the voice acting stage. Likely it's meant to make it clear that he's speaking his mother tongue while everyone else is using recovered fragments, and of course there would be a lot of discrepancies. Given all that, it seems a bit misleading to include the semi-phonetic transcriptions in the word list - we don't know any more than the non-immortal people of Thedas what the correct pronunciations are supposed to be, and even the ones we can hear in the game often differ from one person to the next. --Mevanna (talk) 22:02, January 27, 2015 (UTC) : I wouldn't be against removing the phonetic pronunciations from the article, because they definitely do differ not just between characters but between games. Arlathan specifically stuck out to me. It's pronounced much differently in Inquisition than it is in Origins. -- 23:55, January 27, 2015 (UTC) :Agreed. I think we should remove the phonetic transcriptions, and maybe add a note on the page that explains why. --SylvanLore (talk) 09:10, January 28, 2015 (UTC) : That would be a major change to the article, but you have a point. I suspect that there are different dialects in the language (ancient, modern, regional(?))- for example, Solas's spirit friend speaks with a jarringly different inflection compared to other elves. : What we could do is add multiple pronunciations to the words, like the dictionaries do, with the most frequently heard version listed at the front. --[[User:KeladinStorm|'Keladin Storm']] 17:50, January 30, 2015 (UTC) ::No, that would make the page too cluttered, I think, especially since words like Arlathan have been pronounced, like, six different ways. The pronounce examples draws all the attention away from the actual word, and what it means. Better to keep it as simple as possible, otherwise people might be discouraged to use the dictionary. --SylvanLore (talk) 08:54, January 31, 2015 (UTC) ::: Fair enough. So are we definitely agreeing to remove the phonetics? -- [[User:KeladinStorm|'Keladin Storm']] 05:17, March 11, 2015 (UTC) Deconstructing Elvish section There are translations for the the Ghost Mother's dialog in the toolset localization comments. It gives "Viran se lan'ann? Ir annala for ros..." as "Who are you? I cannot see you...", "Nae! Ga rahn s'deal! Ga rahn!" as "No! Get away from me! Get away!", and "Ir emah'la shal! Ir emah'la shal!" as "I will kill you! I will kill you!" I think that whole section may need to be redone. Also this would change the translation of "ir" to "I" and not "very, more". (talk) 02:41, February 14, 2015 (UTC)S :If that's the case...then yeah, it'll have to be redone. Thanks for bringing this to attention. -- [[User:KeladinStorm|'Keladin Storm']] 01:13, February 19, 2015 (UTC) I'm tempted to say that the things said by the ghostly mother and child, "I Am the One", and possibly some other things are in a different version of the language. (talk) 04:21, March 2, 2015 (UTC) Bellanaris Din'an Heem There is an elven arrow on a rooftop at Skyhold and clicking on it lets you read yet another of Gatsi's nice analyses on Skyhold. I'll put the image with the text here, and maybe somebody who is interested in translating this phrase can add it to the page. 01:07, March 9, 2015 (UTC) : Hmm, I think Gatsi's translation is pretty on-point. "Bellanaris Din'an" roughly translates to "eternal death" and "Heem" could be a conjugation of the verb, "to become." So "make you dead" sounds about right. :) -- [[User:KeladinStorm|'Keladin Storm']] 05:09, March 11, 2015 (UTC) Banal'Ras Given that I'm no expert, I thought I'd post this here and let you guys sort it out. There's an armor called Vir Banal'Ras "The Way of Shadow". Given that Vir means 'way of' and Banal means 'nothing', it would be my assumption that 'Ras is some kind of signifier that means 'the real thing' as in the nothing of the real thing (the shadow). In any case, "Shadow" isn't a word, but it's probably one people want, so I thought I'd throw it out there, and let you guys sort it out. - Cryllia 04:53, March 11, 2015 (UTC) : Awesome. We should probably add it seeing as how words from "Vir Assan," "Vir Bor'Assan," and "Vir Adahlen" are also included on the page. -- [[User:KeladinStorm|'Keladin Storm']] 05:09, March 11, 2015 (UTC) :: So my brain just made a leap - usually not a good thing I know ;). But if we assume that "Ras" means 'thing' in order to create "banal'ras" for 'shadow', then I have to look at the qunlat page with "Bas" which also means 'thing'. Then I look at the Qunari ears and the admission from Bull that the Kossith probably didn't look much like them and I wonder. What if Elven is the original base language in Thedas like Latin was for all the romance languages in the real world? Cryllia 15:19, March 25, 2015 (UTC) This is a bit of a leap and clutching at straws, but since "shadow" in the real world describes a few things like places where light is obstructed, and the darkness following a sunset, is it possible that "Ras" means sunlight/light or some variation of the word. "Ras" may not even be the full word too. So the literal translation of "Banal'ras" could be something like "Absent light". Now, kind of linked to this... on the map of Thedas there's a place west of Orlais called "The Tirashan" which assuming the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, and my assumption about "ras" is right, it could translate as "the place of the setting sun", assuming "Tirashan" is actually elvish. All speculation of course, but certainly food for thought. 15:45, March 25, 2015 (UTC) :: I could fall behind that. 'Tir' is a form of 'Vir' meaning the way or path, 'Ras' is sun or light (with implications of sun') and -an is the place. - Cryllia 13:46, March 26, 2015 (UTC) (Edited) Syntax? Asking the resident experts: does elven follow english syntax? That is, from what I've seen, we (You) have been translating directly, word for word, except when we don't (such as putting 'din' or 'tel' on words to denote their opposite). I was wondering if we knew or if it would be helpful to figure out the actual rules in play? - Cryllia 14:05, March 26, 2015 (UTC) Lethanavir Codex entry: Falon'Din: Friend of the Dead, the Guide Has a word 'Lethanavir' along with (if I'm reading it right) the translation 'Friend to the Dead'. -02:25, March 31, 2015 (UTC) Dalish lullaby from World of Thedas A Dalish lullaby that is fully translated appears in World of Thedas, page 217 or The Seer's Yarn, pg 19. I'm going to post it here with its translation. I don't know if I can parse out what is necessary. I have rendered punctuation exactly here: Mir Da'len Somniar (talk) 07:13, May 3, 2015 (UTC) : Thank you for for your help! It's been added, along with some new words. There are some that still needs parsing. -- Keladin Storm (Talk) 17:45, May 3, 2015 (UTC)